This is the second in a series of posts about water safety. To read the post I wrote right after the accident, click here. To learn more about water safety, check out this post.
You know how sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you’re kind of blindsided, where you see something or you hear something and you don’t know what to say or do in the moment? And then afterwards, you think of all the things you wish you said?
That happens to me a lot. I’m not confrontational. I’m a people pleaser. I don’t want people to be unhappy or uncomfortable and have me be at the root of it all. I once joked that if my life were a Sara Bareilles song, it would be, “Say what you want to say…in an email…and then live in panic while you wait for them to respond and wish that you never said anything…” If I hate my meal at a restaurant, I will probably not say anything. If you hurt my feelings, I probably won’t tell you. I’m a terrible delegator because I don’t want to ask anyone to do a job I would hate to do. I would pretty much make the worst boss ever.
I’ve thought for a long time, a long, long time about writing this. I’ve put it off because it gives me anxiety, because I don’t feel like I’m ready, and then I write a Scoop post about fonts or something. But it keeps kind of resurfacing in my brain, consuming my thoughts, until I do something about it. So I’m doing something about it. And, to be honest, I feel a tiny bit sick to my stomach about it.
You know how everybody has their thing? You’ve got your car seat safety friends and you’ve got your Internet safety friends and you’ve got your bike helmet friends and you’ve got your screentime-is-evil friends, and sometimes you have all of them rolled into one person. Well, guys, I’m your water safety friend.
I shared the story of my son’s near drowning in October of 2012 here. Even though I posted right after the accident, I don’t regret it. Sharing was therapeutic, and the many, many words of kindness, most of which I never responded to, mean the world to me. So if I never thanked you personally, I’m so sorry.
But I was in a very raw place. I couldn’t say things the way I think they need to be said because I couldn’t say those words.
Grief is a funny thing. Even though we didn’t lose him, we came awfully close and I went to a really dark place. I don’t think that made sense to most people, even myself, because he was okay. It was like it happened and then it was over, but it wasn’t really over, you know? I spent a lot of time on the internet googling drowning. What happens. How long does it take. I call it grief porn, because even though I knew it was something that was exploiting my emotions and probably not good for me, I felt drawn to experiencing and re-experiencing all those emotions until I was tapped out.
I became angry, not really at anyone or anything, just intensely, rage-fully angry. It was like that was the only emotion my mind could process, so I did it at full-throttle.
I stopped feeling anything (besides anger) for a good year. In a desperate attempt to feel something, I watched Toy Story 3, which sent me over the edge for a good three weeks when it came out in theaters, and I left shrugging my shoulders.
I became convinced, completely neurotic, that something bad was going to happen, particularly to my youngest. Every time I put him down for a nap or left him with a babysitter, every time we got in the car, I thought that was it. I became totally and completely (and irrationally) paralyzed with fear. I seriously bathed him in a baby bather until he was 9 months old and practically walking out of it.
Finally realizing I needed help, I went to a counselor, who diagnosed me with PTSD. She was very nice and I liked her a lot, but then Clark started having panic attacks (everyone who told me that it would be way harder on me and that he would bounce right back have never met the most intense child on Earth) and I felt like I needed to focus on him. Whether or not that was the right decision, I’m not sure (actually, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the right decision, but I felt like I only had so much time and so many emotional resources), but we focused on getting him through that rough patch.
So now? We’re mostly good. We all have our moments, and sometimes something as simple as a smell or a song can trigger those overwhelming feelings of anxiety. But we’re good. A very wise social worker in the hospital told us that he absolutely had to get back in the water, not just because it’s a crucial life skill but because if we didn’t, it would be this monster that would haunt him for the rest of his life.
So he’s taken several rounds of swimming lessons and it’s become something that he loves. Usually.
So why am I telling you guys all of this? For a couple of reasons. I want people to know that even though he’s okay, it didn’t come without incredible emotional implications like guilt, fear, anxiety, anger, and isolation. I want people to know that things could have very easily gone in another direction, that we were exceptionally blessed/lucky/whatever, and that most people who come that close don’t make it, at least not without devastating side effects. I want to talk about what it was like, what it was really like, and I want to say all those things I wish I would have said, in hopes that we can save another family from an experience like ours.
I think most people have seen the “Drowning Doesn’t Look Like Drowning” article. I shared it when I shared Clark’s story before. If you haven’t read it, you really should. If you have read it, it’s worth looking over again.
But.
What about afterwards? Because just as easily, you could say “a drowning rescue doesn’t look like a drowning rescue.” Sara and I have both said that if more people had seen what it is actually like, they would be infinitely more cautious with their kids around water.
If you guys watch Mad Men, you might remember a scene in the most recent season where Don is at a party and is partaking of late-1960’s-ish substances that he shouldn’t be. In a hallucination, he walks up to the side of the pool and sees himself floating face-down with his arms extended. Then someone jumps in and rescues him and pulls him out of the water and although things clearly are not good, his coloring is Jon Hamm-ish beautiful and they lay him at the side of the pool and smack him a few times and he coughs up some water and then puts on a robe and goes and sits in a chair.
That’s not how it happens.
When my daughter told me that Clark was under the water, I asked her if he was playing or if he was in trouble and she told me she thought he was in trouble. When we turned around, he was on the floor of the pool, face-down, with his arms extended, just like you see in pictures. It still haunts me.
At the side of the pool, Clark was purple, from his nose all the way down through his chest. Once Sara’s husband resuscitated him, he didn’t just expel pool water. There were a lot of hysterical, extreme emotions, not just from us, but from many in the pool area, whether or not they knew us. It was ugly, it was intense and terrifying and messy and nothing like TV or movies.
- Drowning is the #1 killer for kids between 1-4, #2 behind car accidents for kids between 5-9, and #3 behind car accidents and suicide (!) for kids between 10-14.
- Drowning is silent and generally involves very little motion because the body is thrown into survival mode. No yelling or splashing or thrashing.
- Slipping under the water can happen in just a few seconds. The body loses consciousness without oxygen in 1-2 minutes, sometimes sooner depending on how hard the person was exerting themselves.
- Small children can drown in an inch of water.
- Even kids who have been good swimmers in controlled environments (like Clark) can panic when things suddenly don’t go as planned.
When Clark slipped under the water, I was looking up directions on a map on my phone. I got sidetracked by a funny text. Wanna know how long that took me? I timed myself. About a minute. So I timed myself doing other stuff. Going to the bathroom? 3 minutes. Making my bed? 3 minutes. Unloading the dishwasher? 7 minutes. Watching a kid swim across the pool and back? 2 minutes. Reading and answering a simple email? 4 minutes. Talking to my sister on the phone? 12 minutes. Comforting my daughter who got confused about sleepover dates? 5 minutes. Then try holding your breath and you’ll see how desperately quick that time goes by.
I have a dear friend who lost her son to drowning and she compares kids and water to kids and heavy equipment like chainsaws–you would never, ever take your eyes off your kids around stuff like that, and you never can with water.
Last summer, on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, I saw all sorts of stuff pop up about pools and lakes and water and I wished I’d had the guts at the time to say something, but I didn’t. Not to make anyone feel bad; I truly don’t want anyone to feel bad or like I’m judging them because I’m not; I just want people to think, really think, about how dangerous the water can be (along with being fun and necessary, which is part of why drowning is such a prevalent problem). If our experience can prevent this from happening again even once, I’ll take it.
- I wish I’d said that arm floaties, noodles, air rafts, and anything other than an actual US Coast Guard-approved life jacket are not safe and create a false sense of security. Unless kids are great swimmers and are just using them for fun, these things shouldn’t be used.
- I wish, when people said they sent their younger kids to the pool with their 12-year-old that they would realize that a 12-year-old isn’t physically or emotionally capable of caring for many small children near the water.
- I wish I had said that lifeguards are there to administer emergency assistance and not to babysit.
- I cringe when I see pictures of adorable summer toes and a great summer book and a refreshing summer drink while kids play in the pool without their parents.
- I cringe when people talk about singlehandedly bringing their 5 kids and someone else’s brood to the pool by themselves. You’ve got two eyes that point in the same direction and two arms; until some of those kids are old enough to pass a life-saving course, there are not nearly enough people there.
- I am totally uncomfortable with summer day camps for younger kids that involve swimming as an activity (I’m not talking about swimming camps where kids are learning swimming skills, but just where they go play in the pool. There was a drowning like this in my area a few years back with a teenager who was not a strong swimmer.)
- If I could go back and tell my pre-near-drowning self something, it would be to ask what the heck I was doing holding a three-month-old baby with my feet in the water while my kids swam in the pool. What would I have done if no one else had been there? My sheer presence would not have saved anyone. Where would I have put the baby? What would I have actually done?
- I’m not afraid to say that unless it was a one-on-one swimming lesson, I am not at a point where I am comfortable with any of my kids being in the water without me being right there.
I ask that you decide to comment to keep things nice. I’m not writing this from a mean or judgy place, I’m writing it from the most tender recesses of my heart. Likewise, if you have something mean to say to me about our experience, even though it’s been a year and a half, it will still hurt and I will still probably delete it, not to be an evil censoring overlord or to have you only say nice things to me to make me feel better about myself but just, well, because.
But first and foremost, as we get closer to summer, as you guys start your family vacations and beach trips and lake trips and pool parties, I hope you guys will take this to heart. I hope you’ll stand up and be vocal when you see people being unsafe near water. I hope you’ll take charge and designate someone to watch the pool at a party if it hasn’t been done. I hope you’ll get in the water with your kids, regardless about how you feel about yourself in a bathing suit or how tired you are. If you can’t give 100% for whatever reason, save the pool for another day. I hope you’ll teach your kids these things so when you aren’t there, they’ll know, too.
I love you guys. I really do. I feel like so many of you are my friends, so thank you for all your continued love and support. Here’s to a fun, happy, and safe spring and summer!
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Questions & Reviews
Excellent EXCELLENT post!! I fully support saying what needs to be said and not beating around the bush. I have been guilty of insufficiently watching my kids around the pool (talking to friends by the pool rather than REALLY watching every minute) and it makes me feel sick to think what might have happened during my neglect. Thank you for this essential, heartfelt plea to be safe, just in time for summer swimming (which is really very soon for us in AZ!).
Thank you for sharing this! I don’t think we can be reminded of this too much.
We’ll said! My oldest went under once as a toddler when my sister turned her back, lifeguard dive in fully clothed, second time was a raft night when he was 8 and a good swimmer. He went under, we were right there and pulled him out. He shocked himself. The lesson he learned that night is that fatigue and swimming are not a good combination.
Loved this. Water is scary! My girls are 2 and 5 and I have had a few different friends ask if I could take their daughter to the pool with me- one was only a month postpartum and I knew she could really use a break, and that her little 4 year old would love getting out of the house. But when it comes down to it- I am plenty busy watching my own two children at the pool- let alone someone else’s kids! I wish we could do it all, but unfortunately we can’t. Thanks for a great reminder!
Thank you for the courage to write this. I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been, I had to build up courage just to read it. I will certainly … without a doubt, be watching more closely now.
Thank you for sharing this. I have a medically fragile son and I suffer PTSD from small triggers that send me right back to moments of having to resuscitate him. It is terrifying and I am sorry that you have to also live this reality. Thank you for using your experience to spread awareness. I know that I personally have been much more aware of my kids and water since you courageously shared your experience.
Wonderfully written! Thank you for writing this.
I have thought a lot about this post since reading it yesterday and it really resonates with me. I just bought Puddle Jumpers for my two small kids to use for swimming (the are certified life vests) and it gives me so much piece of mind to have them. Even still, when we go swimming I stay close and in the water with my kids and am saddened when I see little ones unattended. Thank you for sharing this very important message!
Thank you for bravely sharing the emotional aftermath of your experience. Your openness is a support to me.
I’m sorry for what you went through. I have lost a child (although not to drowning) and it’s been 3 years but it’s still a hard thing to deal with. If you can convince even one parent to pay attention, that would be a great bonus to such a hard post for you to write. I used to work as a lifeguard, and I had to jump in for several kids, and toss a flotation device to another kid. In each case, a parent was nowhere nearby. One girl had jumped off the diving board without being able to swim. She was at the pool with a day camp, and it was impossible for the leaders to keep an eye on so many kids. Another boy just got out too far, and he was at the pool by himself. (Many, many parents just dropped their kids off during the open swim time. Very few even sat along the pool in chairs, and far fewer got in the water with them!) As much as I hate wearing a swimsuit, I am right there in the water with my kiddos!
Thank you SO VERY MUCH for sharing this post!! I really appreciate it, and I know so many people are going to benefit because of everything that you shared. I’m so very glad that your son was watched over that day, and that he was okay. What a blessing. Thanks again so much for this post and all the good information that I hadn’t even thought of! It makes me feel so much more cautious about my kids being in the water. And I will definitely be more on guard this summer when I take my kids swimming.
Thank you for sharing your story and being honest about the aftermath. I cannot even imagine how your life has been turned upside down. The loss of the sense of security must have been enormous. I really hope people read your blog and take your advice about water safety to heart. We just had this week, what I call, a ‘near miss’. My little guy of 3.5 years was at swim lessons and went under without anybody noticing it. All I saw were two little hands up in the air. I was able to sprint over to him and grab him and he is just fine. But, like you said, plenty of adults within reach of him and nobody around him saw it happen (incl. the life guard and instructor). So, always keep your eyes peeled on the kids. ALWAYS!!!!
Well said Kate! I missed yesterday’s post and just now read it. I completely understand where you are coming from as my child had an experience as a 4 yr old where he slipped into the deep end less than 2 feet from me. While it was no where near the horrifying experience you went through, it left him with a deep seated fear of submerging underwater. For 14 years he couldn’t do it. He tried over and over again. Finally last year at the age of 17 he conquered his fear and is swimming. The one thing that really stayed with me was something his amazing instructor said. That he had to address the little 4 yr old still inside who was still going through the trauma of that moment. To overcome it he had to acknowledge that scared little boy and remind him that while it DID happen, it is NOT happening now. That was crucial and it worked. While I still am completely paranoid, and while he is now 18 yrs old and legally an adult I keep a hawk’s eye on him anytime we are near or in the water (we live on Maui). Thanks so much for your brave and very honest post.
I’m so glad you got brave enough to write this post. So many important things. First, I am so glad you talked about your PTSD. People dont talk enough about mental illness although it is so very common. Second, your points about swimming safety are so important! We have a pool in our neighborhood and I am always horrified at the parents who send their young children by themselves. I’m convinced one day I’m going to have a rescue a child out of that pool. My son is 8 yrs old and on the swim team, and I still would never leave him at a pool alone. NEVER. My son and his friend were swimming together two years ago and the friend panicked and began clinging to my son who was struggling to keep both heads above water. My husband had to jump in to save them both. Nothing even close to what you experienced, and it traumatized me for a long time. Thank you for promoting water safety!
Wow. What a powerful post. I truly appreciate the candidness. Thank you for being so passionate about this. Truly, anyone who has experienced a drowning, or near drowning can relate. I will gladly share with anyone I can. It is important people understand the importance of being vigilant. They are our children. There isn’t anything more important than their safety. Thank you so very much!
I’m so glad you posted this. It’s such a great reminder before summer. As a mom with a couple of pretty capable swimmers, I never think twice about focusing on my book or magazine while “watching” my kids at the pool. This article (and your first one, after the incident) has definitely made me think twice. So thank you, you may never know if your words have saved a life because of a reader conciously choosing to be more aware, but I have a feeling your story has certainly had enough of an impact to do that.
This post hit home for me in so many ways. I was a lifeguard for several years in high school and college. I actually assisted the most children in the kiddie pool. Many of them were wearing life jackets (which was great!), but small children in life jackets often have trouble keeping their balance in the water. Many would end up face down in the pool, unable to right themselves or get their feet under them to stand up. Parents often were not watching because they felt their children were safe with life jackets on. So please remember to watch children closely even when they have life jackets on.
I still clearly remember the one older child I had to save. As you say, there was no yelling or thrashing. Not a sound. He was looking up at the surface, eyes wide, hands to his side, kicking with all his might to get his head above the surface. He was so close and just couldn’t do it. After, I went and delivered him to his mother. I don’t know why his mother let him wander the water park alone, but I bet she never did again.
Kate, my son also had a life threatening experience when he was little. After, I also started to experience the crippling anxiety you describe. I had never had a problem with anxiety before then. It somehow found its way into almost every aspect of my life. As you say, it was rough. I am mostly ok now too, and I’m glad you are as well. At the time, I was a working mother with a very demanding schedule. I think the constant stress I was under also contributed to the situation. Going forward, the experience has been a good reminder for me to keep a close watch on my schedule and adjust it right away when I start to overdo things. Thanks again for a wonderful, heart-felt post.
Kate, thank you for being so brave and writing this, I can’t imagine what you have been through. You are so right that everyone needs to wake up about how dangerous swimming situations are. My 19 year old daughter was a playground supervisor a few years ago, and for a field trip, the directors arranged for everyone to get on a bus and go to a local state park, where there was a lake with a beach, but no lifeguards anymore. Two teenaged supervisors and a few volunteer parents would take about 20 kids, as young as 5. And swimming permission slips had been sent home for parents to sign. When my daughter told me this I immediately panicked and said “You cannot allow those kids near the water!” I called the office to complain and try to stop the trip and I told them they were making a BIG mistake, but it did no good. They went on the trip, and my daughter told the kids that even though they had permission, no one was getting in the water. But when she turned her back, the other supervisor and some parents let the kids swim. This was a LAKE, with DARK WATER. I was absolutely sick the whole time they were gone because I was afraid something like that would happen. And when I found out it did happen I was LIVID. How were the adults involved so nonchalant about it?? I just thanked God that nothing bad happened that day.
I was a lifeguard for 5 years and the days when the summer camp kids came in to play for a couple hours were often the most stressful. You get a hundred kids in a pool and they go wild and it is so easy for a kid to go unnoticed.
Thank you for this post. You hit on so many important topics and as we are creeping closer to summer, ANY reminder to parents on these tips, that should be self-explanatory but aren’t, is a good thing.
Kudos to you. I’m sorry for what your family went through, but I love that you are using your experience for good.
Thanks so much for your words, we will be swimming alot this summer in the AZ heat and it is really good to read your post and be reminded that we need to be so careful with our kids and water! Many many thanks!
Thank you so much for posting this! I needed the reminder to always make sure I’m so careful around water even with my older kids. I’ve always been pretty careful and never let them go with friends without me, but I think I started getting a little too much confidence in my oldest. Anyway, thank you for putting yourself out there! I hope no one is mean! And by-the-way, I’ve always thought Clark was one of the cutest/most handsome kids ever! He is seriously so stinking cute (as well as your other kids–so adorable!)!
I’m so glad your son pulled through but I’m sure it’s hard to get that awful event out of your head. When my youngest son was about 4, he was taking a bath. I was right there, sort of puttering around between the bathroom and the hallway, getting his clothes to wear, towel etc. He loved to put his face in the water and then push back and forth to make waves, I was actually pretty proud that none of my kids were afraid of having their face underwater because it had terrified me as a child, even having my hair rinsed sent me into hysterics.
I came back in the bathroom after grabbing a few things and he was face down, under the water, not moving so I yelled at him to get up, he didn’t move so I yelled it again even louder. Then I grabbed him by the wrist and he was limp. I was holding his entire body by the wrist and, out of sheer panic, I started jiggling him up and down and screaming his name hysterically. After a few seconds he looked up at me and said “What”. I broke down sobbing and NEVER took my eyes off him in the tub, for even a millisecond after that. I was talking to another mom about it who had a nursing background and she said he was entering unconsciousness and I roused him out of it. I know my reaction was not the correct one but it felt so surreal, panic took over!
Anyway, that was 16 years ago but it still runs through my head. I cannot even imagine what your experience, and that of moms who’ve lost their children, must be like:( Raising awareness is so important and the number one thing I’ve learned was how silent it can be! Thank you for sharing your story.
PS – I also just have to say that you have the cutest kids on the planet. That picture at the top of your little man on the beach literally makes my heart melt.
I grew up with a pool in our backyard in Natchitoches. We swam almost every day. Even in the winter. I am a very good swimmer, and I don’t ever remember having a near-drowning experience or anything traumatic happen to me. And yet, I have this insane, paranoid-type fear of the water. I’m ok to be in a pool. I’m not ok when my kids are in a pool. Or lake. Or any type of body of water. I have this horrible fear of one of them drowning. Do we still swim sometimes? Yes. But I make my husband get in the water with them, and I sit on the side of the pool, watching them like a crazy person. I’ve been right there a few times when my kids have slipped under the water at a place in the pool where they thought they could touch, but they couldn’t. I watch them like a hawk… I got my daughter pulled out within seconds of her slipping under… and yet, it could have been so easy for me to be distracted with a book or my phone, and she could have died. My husband was about 5 feet away from her, playing with my son… and he had no idea she had slipped under. It takes one second. I HATE HATE HATE when my kids friends ask them to go swimming. Without me. I grill the mom and make sure that my kid will be watched like a hawk. I remind my kids about the dangers of water and that they must wear their life jackets at all times. And I wait with major anxiety every second until my kids come happily bouncing in the house because they had so much fun at the pool. We are doing MORE swimming lessons this spring and summer… but even with swimming lessons, kids are in danger near the water. One second of panic can lead to something so awful. As you have experienced. Thank you for writing this. I feel ok now to be the psycho mom who rarely takes her kids to the pool because I’m just sure one of them will drown. You have experienced something so traumatic, and you and your son will both be affected by it for the rest of your lives. Thank you for being open and honest and candid. Your words are so important.
As a former lifeguard with both numerous pool and ocean saves I can not say enough about the use of any inflatable object as a substitute for an attentive parent or guardian. Whenever I saw a parent put “floaties” on a kids I would tel them if they jump in and have their arms in the air they may slip off their arms. Or the “life-vest inner tubes”, I’d say, if they flip over they may not be able to right themselves and that jacket will actually keep them from exiting the tube. To this day, any pool I’m at I can’t relax when kids are present, even the one in my back yard, I constantly “scan” and focus on potential problems. I have been to the beach and seen kids that are unable to swim using a beach ball as a floatation device. My wife gets upset, but I will tell her to keep a close eye on the kids, I have to watch those kids over there. As an adult I have had to rescue 5 kids who slipped off the ball and go under. Parents, a lifeguard is trained to recognize a drowning but is easily distracted by a scream or stopping horseplay of other pool patrons. If you buy any type of floatation device for a toddler I suggest a Stearns Puddle Jumper. It is Coast Guard approved, VERY comfortable and non constricting. It’s on my 3 year old every time we go out to the pool!
Wow, I thank you for this. I have two 15-year-olds, a 10-year-old and a 6-year-old. The older ones have all gone through water classes but nothing last year. I think I’ll be re-doing safety classes for all of them and buying my youngest a new certified life vest. We spend a week at the beach each summer and I don’t worry as much about the water safety, especially for the older ones. I think this post will help me be more observant and active when we are doing water activities. Thank you for being brave enough to share this. My heart aches for what you and your family experienced.
Thank you for this post. It was courageous and kind. It brought me to tears to think about you and your experience and your desire to save others. We are thinking about buying a house with a pool, and this does give me pause!
Thank you. Even though I am older than you, have more kids than you, and have been a mother longer than you, that does not mean you have not had experiences I have not! I appreciate you being willing to share with me so I can make sure I am doing all I can to keep my family safe too. I remember once I was making cookies with my oldest two, than 3 and 5, and my 3 year old picked up a scoop of flower ( thinking it was sugar), tipped his head back and dumped it in his mouth nose and eyes. He began to choke, but then as the flower got wetter in his mouth he quit making noise, and couldn’t breath. I had NO clue what to do for him. It was like a mouth and throat full of paste. Thankfully my husband was home and was able to help him pretty quick. I can’t tell you how many times I tried sharing this strange and hidden ” choking hazard” with other moms, only to have them look at me like I was crazy, chuckle, shrug there shoulders and dismiss it like it wasn’t that serious of a situation. Like because he was ok, and didn’t die, or have any lasting injury….. It must not have been a dangerous situation after all. I finally gave up. Thank you for sharing your situation so I can be better prepared, informed, and alert to dangers I may never have thought of. I would love to see a cel phone app that moms could subscribe to that would send out daily safety tips and reminders that were activity or age appropriate for our children. Like….parking lot safety , travel/hotel safety, pool, bath tub water safety, even seat belt and food safety for toddlers. It is so easy to get distracted, especially when you are out numbered and just trying to get threw daily activities, and forget to properly secure a chest buckle,lock stroller wheels, cut those 400 grapes in half, or keep powdery kitchen ingredients out of their air-ways! 🙂
Thank you for sharing. I have a pool and my kids are middle aged and I know I get a little too comfortable with letting them swim while I “watch from the window”. You have made me rethink the way I will do things this summer. I am committed to staying out there with them. Thank you for taking the time to share.